Jade Elouise aka Bodiposipoet

You can be everything that you are - Series 2, Episode 2

In this episode, I’m joined by Spiritual Healer, Body Positivity Advocate, poet and artist, Jade Elouise (she/her) aka @Bodiposipoet. Her activism, creative outlets and spiritual work all centre around advocating for social justice, equality and equity for marginalised bodies on a systemic level, while also promoting self-healing and self-acceptance on a personal one.

We chat about Jade’s work to reclaim the co-opted body positivity movement, how spirituality and activism can work so well together, speaking out about spiritual bypassing, queering psychology, the power of creativity for self-expression and lots more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

You can find out more about Jade’s work by following these accounts on Instagram: @bodiposipoet, @reclaimingbopo and @asafespacetogrow

 Head to Jade’s Etsy shop to buy some beautiful art!

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co., the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy, my pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Gem: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 2. I hope you've all had a good week despite lockdown. I'm currently snuggled in my dressing gown, because it's absolutely freezing here and I don't want to go outside and get wood so I can light a fire so I thought I'd record the intro instead. And something keeping me nice and warm at the moment, this sounds like such a segue, are the feelings that I got from having this interview with my guest today. I'm sure that you're going to get a lot out of our conversation. I know I definitely did. And yeah, without further ado, I'll introduce her to you. So her name is Jade: Elouise, also known as bodiposipoet. She is a spiritual healer, body positivity advocate, poet and artist. Her activism, creative outlets and spiritual work all centre around advocating for social justice, equality and equity for marginalised bodies on a systemic level, while also promoting self-healing and self-acceptance on a personal one. I hope you enjoy the episode. And I'd love to hear your thoughts afterwards so do head over to the Facebook group to join in the conversation. So now over to the wonderful Jade Elouise.

Gem: Hi Jade. How are you?

Jade: Good thank you. How are you?

Gem: I'm good, thank you. Thanks so much for joining me, I'm really excited to talk to you.

Jade: Oh, thank you for having me.

Gem: Not at all. It would be great if you're happy to just introduce yourself for anyone who hasn't come across your work before.

Jade: Yeah, sure. So my name is Jade Elouise, but I go by Bodiposipoet. I am a spiritual healer and life coach. I'm an artist and I am a body positivity and self-love advocate and activist. So most of my work online focuses around learning to love your body, but also advocating for all bodies and equality for all bodies.

Gem: Thank you. And there's so much to unpack there. I know we talked before about kind of digging into all the different aspects of your work so maybe if you're happy to let's start off with how you kind of got into body positivity because I know that's a huge part of what you do.

Jade: Yeah. So I think like most people, I struggled with body image growing up. My weight, and the way I looked was always made quite a big deal. And so I didn't really have a great relationship with myself and my body. And then when I was in my teens, I kind of came across self-love movements online and I slowly started to learn to love myself more, and just advocate for my right to exist in my body without fear or anxiety or pressure. And when I was in those self-love communities, I slowly came across body positivity. And I realised that I resonated with body positivity just as much, if not more than, self-love because not only was it saying I deserve to love myself, but it was also saying actually, I deserve to live in the world without fear and I deserve to be able to have the same experiences as everyone else. Equally and equitably. So I think body positivity was sort of a saviour for me in a lot of senses in just being at home in myself.

Gem: Yeah, and how did that change your relationship with your body?

Jade: Oh, massively not just my body, but it changed who I was as a person because I wasn't afraid anymore to just exist. I think so many of us are fearful of rejection and of humiliation and of people not accepting who we are. And I was so afraid of that for so much of my life. But with body positivity, I reached a point where I thought not only now do I have the power to stand within my convictions and be a representative of who I am and my body but also I have the power to uplift other people. And to explain to them why all bodies matter.

Gem: Yeah, I love that and did your work come before that or during it or afterwards?

Jade: I think for the most part online, I was just trying to find a way to express myself. I'd always been quite, well not always, I think the more that I learnt to hide away because of my body, the more I became introverted, so for me being online and advocating for my body was mostly just a celebration and exploration of myself. I wasn't really trying to advocate for anyone other than myself when I started out. I just wanted a space where I could explore my relationship with my body and to see other people doing the same. And then the more that time went on, the more I realised that actually this was bigger than just me, it's about how we treat bodies in our society, and I wanted to be a part of making changes towards that. So it slowly went from me being just about me and about my body to being about all bodies and caring about how all bodies are treated.

Gem: Yeah and your work kind of, I don't want to say tackles, that doesn't sound like the right word. Your work kind of covers that from lots of different angles. So in terms of like creativity and spirituality, and that healing element, and community, obviously as well. But before we dig into all the other things, I wondered about your hashtag that you use, #reclaimingbopo and if you could just tell us a bit more about how that came about?

Jade: Yeah, so #reclaimingbopo I think, mostly came from frustration, if I'm honest. It was more... I was just seeing body positive spaces online being co-opted and claimed by bodies that weren't at the forefront of pushing the body positive movement. Body positivity historically was centred in Black women, Black fat women, and people in the most marginalised bodies and yet, if you scroll through body positive hashtags online, what you'll mostly see is white cisgender women who are straight-sized. And often they're promoting diet culture, which obviously body positivity is not the complete opposite of but it does try to tackle. And I just find it so frustrating, because when I started in self-love and body positivity communities, there was that diversity, there was that representation of everybody. And these body positivity spaces had just lost their meaning. And I was just looking through all of these hashtags and I just thought, you know, what can we do about this? Have we lost body positivity forever? Or is there some way that we can reclaim it? And so it was almost born overnight, just out of frustration, I set up the hashtag and I wrote a post about I wanted to start advocating for reclaiming bopo. And I set up a Facebook page, and I just thought, I'm going to try and make a safe space for marginalised bodies, where they can advocate for themselves again, and where they can centre themselves in the movement that was always meant to centre them.

Gem: Yeah and what has that been like, kind of reclaiming that and seeing how people may have started using the hashtag in ways that maybe you didn't imagine and in ways that you did imagine or hoped for?

Jade: Yeah, I wasn't really sure what the response would be to it to be honest. And the profile on Instagram and Facebook is still quite small, in terms of kind of comparative body positivity pages and things like that, but the community there is very strong in its conviction that body positivity should be reclaimed. And I love when I see people use the hashtag. And I love when people tag the #reclaimingbopo page in their posts, because it just shows me that there are people who still care about what body positivity represents, and to whom body positivity is still really meaningful, and really matters to them, and their journeys of learning to love their bodies. So it's just been amazing. I mean, I'm still working on how I can keep pushing the movement and how I can make it something bigger and hopefully find more people who are feeling a little bit lost with body positivity and aren't really sure where to go and make it an inclusive space where we can reach as many people as possible.

Gem: Yeah, I know, when I first kind of got into body positivity, it felt much more inclusive than it has done in recent times. But also, I don't know what your experience has been but as a queer person and also non-binary person, it's been quite... it was interesting to see actually the lack of representation in sort of mainstream body positive movements around other bodies like obviously bodies of colour, bodies of varying abilities and I think that's part of the reason why I started Queers & Co. to actually find out about queer people's relationships with their bodies, because I think there's such a lack of that information out there. And what's it been like for you existing as a queer person in the body positive movement?

Jade: I think one of the reasons why my relationship with my body has always been a little bit complicated was because I sat at a lot of different intersections. And body positivity is meant to be intersectional. It should take into consideration the different life experiences that people have, depending on what intersections they sit on. So it's not just about fatness, and I think a lot of people make that mistake of thinking, if they live in a body that is seen as fat by our society, that that's all that should matter in terms of entering a body positivity space, but different sizes of people are reacted to differently by our society, but also different categories of people. So, for me, you know, I'm a fat Black woman, but not only that I'm also disabled, and I'm also queer, and those different experiences have... they've sort of made me sort of shrink in on myself because I thought, can I really be all these things, and still be accepted by society? So for a long time, it took me a lot of soul searching to realise that yes, I am queer because I was afraid to be. I didn't know what it meant, could I really be fat and Black, and have these problems with my body and my health, and my mental health, and then somehow still tell people also I'm queer. I just didn't know how I would be accepted. Not only in general society, but also in queer spaces. Was I too other? Was I too different? And I think, actually body positivity helped me in learning that no, all bodies deserve to accept themselves wholly, for all the things that they are. But equally, as body positivity became more co-opted, I realised that actually, I don't fit into this space, as it's being represented anymore.

Gem: Yeah and what is your relationship with community like? Obviously, it's quite difficult right now with lockdown and everything, but I guess you mentioned sort of first finding community around self-love and body positivity online, and what's your kind of day to day community like around those those things as well?

Jade: I found it really interesting, actually, as my perspectives shifted, just in general life, but also on the content that I was putting online, so too did my communities. And I think that's a really beautiful thing about social media is that you find the people that you best align with. So there's so many people online, who I'm so blessed to have met, both online and then shortly, (obviously, it's difficult at the moment) but shortly afterwards in real life, and just knowing that there are people who, if I'm having a bad day, or if I want to express myself around a certain topic, who see me and support me and kind of want to be with me in these experiences, and just share it and what I'm sharing, it means a lot, because I've not always fit in in sort of real life situations, I guess you could put it. I've always felt quite different to my peers. So knowing that there's such a wide range of people online, who I might not have had the privilege to meet in real life, if it weren't for social media and online spaces, is really just a blessing because it saved me from feeling isolated and lonely. And there's so many different communities that I've been a part of, when I first started on social media, I actually started within the pinup communities, because it was the only place that I saw plus-size women being represented. And that's what took me to the self-love communities, and then to the bopo communities. But then also being an artist and a spiritual healer, I have those communities as well that I can turn to for different reasons. So I think community is just such an important thing for feeling supported and not feeling isolated. And just knowing that you have your people there for you and to support you.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And so you mentioned there being a healer and a coach. And yeah, it's an intersection that I'm really, really fascinated and super interested in, like spirituality and activism and also creativity. So what do I want to ask first? I guess, I guess it would be really interesting to hear how... Yeah, first of all, let's start with spirituality. And I know that you talk about being intuitive or psychic on your account sometimes and what does that mean to you? And how might it have supported you over time?

Jade: Yeah, I mean, it's something that I've just started sort of publicly embracing, because again, it was just something that I thought, does this also makes me other? But I've always been intuitive. I've always been an empath. I've always felt a lot of what other people were feeling. And I think, in a lot of ways, it linked into my mental health issues. Because if I was around people that were feeling kind of a deep sadness, I would feel it too. So I knew I've always known that sort of intuitive side of me was there. But I didn't really have a name for it. And for a long time, I sort of rejected any sort of religion or spirituality, because it just didn't fit in with my worldview. But it sort of discovered me I suppose. I sort of became a part of spiritual communities. People reached out to me and wanted to help me be in line with my gifts and I always knew that I wanted to help people. I studied psychology at university and I knew that I wanted to go into some sort of counselling or guidance for people because of the life experiences that I'd had and the mental health difficulties that I've been through, it just so happens that psychology wasn't the only way to go about it. I realised that it was also through spiritual health and just sort of being in tune more with our holistic wellbeing and our overall wellbeing. And it's funny because a lot of people are sort of confused by this side of me because it doesn't seem to align with activism, and it doesn't seem to align with body positivity. But to me, all parts of ourselves are connected so you don't just have to be one thing or another, you can be everything that you are.

Gem: Totally and thinking about drawing on spirituality as a way to be an activist, I think there's so much power there. And um, for example, you know, you talk about spiritual bypassing and how just staying "Love and Light", for example, if someone is a spiritual person does not take into account the experiences of marginalised communities, it's very easy for some parts of the spiritual world to just brush over any kinds of oppression. And I wonder if you had any sort of pushback or any difficulties with those ideas from more spiritual communities?

Jade: Yeah, definitely. Oh, it's really difficult. I understand. I do understand, being a spiritual person, I understand this need to want everything to be fluffy and lovely and light, and I get it. But it's not real life, I think a lot of spiritual people are so focused on what they would call the bigger picture. They're so focused on all, you know, we're just here to learn lessons. And looking at sort of spiritual meanings, but not looking at the real life moments and the real life experiences that people are having. And in my belief, we are all here for a human experience, which means that we need to look at how those human experiences differ, and how different people are experiencing the world that we're in. And I've lost, unfortunately, a lot of friends and spiritual mentors even, through them just wanting to overlook the different human experiences that we all have, race and racial equality just wasn't as important to them as it should have been because they were so focused on the idea that we're all one. But if we're all one, then we should all care about how we're all being treated. And if one of us is being treated with inequality, then all of us are affected by that. And all of us should care about making those changes to ensure that that stops happening. And I was really saddened last year, over the summer, with all the Black Lives Matter protests going on, to see friends or people I had considered as friends, dismissing their concerns and dismissing the fact that Black people were being disproportionately killed and mistreated, and they just were unwilling to see it. And so I had to let those people go from my life, because I just knew that we were never going to see eye to eye and I could argue until I was blue in the face. But in truth, I don't see the point in wasting time with people who aren't willing to change their mindset. For me, I think spirituality is also openness, and the willingness to be a part of different people's experiences, and listen and learn. And if those people weren't willing to do that, then unfortunately, I had to let them go. So I've definitely experienced some pushback. But you know, we're all on our different journeys. And I will keep promoting my message and hoping that, at some point, people within these spiritual communities will be willing to catch up.

Gem: Yeah, that sounds really painful to not only be going through the summer with BLM, and you know, everything that was happening, but also then in your communities to find that people were not supportive of that.

Jade: Yeah. And also just, I think, partly because of my age, because I'm quite young. And a lot of my spiritual mentors were older than me, they've sort of, they had this idea that because I was younger, I didn't have an evolved enough view of the world. I think that they had never been mostly white. A lot of them had never had the life experiences that I had had in terms of race, and they weren't willing to empathise with people who had those experiences. And, you know, to me, you can't call yourself a spiritual person if you think that age is all that matters, because all of our life experiences are so different. And the only way that we can evolve is by looking at everybody's life experiences, and not just sort of our own worldview. And spiritual bypassing is really a problem within spiritual communities. Because people are just so happy to overlook any ideas or values that don't align with their worldview. It's all quite egotistical, and it's quite ironic because a lot of spiritual communities claim to remove ego from themselves and from their lives and from their spiritual practices. But in truth when they're tested, and when they're given a perfect example of how they can get involved in the wider community, and take a stand against injustice and inequality, because it doesn't serve them because it doesn't serve their ego or their worldview, they choose to ignore it. And they use spiritual terms and they use spiritual practices as a way to get around having to do it, to excuse themselves from the larger problem. And that's just not good enough. It's not good enough. And to me, it's not spiritual. But obviously, we've all got different ideas as to what spirituality is.

Gem: Yeah, it can be so frustrating, though, because I've had conversations with people like that you literally cannot - it's not about winning, this doesn't sound right - but you can't convince someone of a differing view when the ultimate thing is like, "Yeah, but the universe says this", you know? I mean, where can you go with that? There's not really, you know, for example, if you're talking about we should all fight for marginalised communities rights, "Oh yea, but the universe says that..." and then okay, well, I can't say anything, then if that's what the universe says, I'm just stuck.

Jade: Yeah, it does, it really feels like that. And I've tried to argue with people and go about things and have really philosophical conversations and sort of get on their level. And the thing is, if people want to argue their way out of something, they will find a way, because in truth, it's not about their spiritual beliefs, it's actually about their human experience. And the fact that they hold a lot of privilege, and they don't want to release that privilege and all they're doing is using spirituality as a mask. And if people want to hide, if people don't want to confront their privileges and prejudices, if they don't want to look beyond themselves, you can't force them to, you just can't. And I think there's no point wasting your energy, which could be better served in other ways, on those people. I think, you know, conserving your energy as an activist, and as someone who just wants to fight for equality is really important because there's always another issue, there's always something else that needs to be addressed. So if you're spending your energy addressing it with the wrong people, you won't have the energy for the conversations that really matter for the conversations that will make a difference. And that was a really harsh learning curve for me over the summer, because I was spending my energy teaching people who either just wanted to use me and my experiences to sort of back them and their points or who just didn't really care about what I had to say. And so in the end, I sort of just stopped having those conversations, when I knew nothing was going to come of it, and sort of resisted the urge to want to create change, where change cannot come about until those people will make the changes for themselves.

Gem: Yeah, there's something about potentially having planted a few seeds in those conversations, but actually in allowing yourself to step away so that you can conserve your energy, as you say, and move on to things that are going to maybe serve your purpose better.

Jade: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think we all want to create change, but sometimes we just have to create change in the spaces that are willing to accept it.

Gem: Yeah. Yeah. And thinking about spirituality and activism. I wonder whether... I guess, first of all, was activism something that was kind of on your radar before you were in touch with your spirituality? And how have you used the one for the other? Or how do they kind of work together?

Jade: Yeah, I mean, I never really considered myself an activist, I always used the word advocate. And it's only in recent months that I've sort of - I still don't use it that much myself, but I align with that more because I think if you're trying to create change in whatever capacity, then you are an activist. But for me, I think spirituality helps me to feel more empowered and emboldened and to feel like I have the power to create change. I think because I was disconnected with myself and because I kept trying to compartmentalise myself into all these different roles, without seeing that all of these things were a part of me, it made me quite disempowered, and it made me feel like I wasn't strong enough to create any sort of change so spirituality definitely helped me in the sense of knowing my worth and knowing my power as an individual, but also the power that can come from community when you find people that you're aligned with because it amplifies your voice and it amplifies your message. So spirituality you know, in terms of just empowering you towards activism really means a lot, but also using spiritual healing and spiritual life coaching techniques for activism, I think is possible. And obviously, it depends on your belief systems and it depends on what works for you, but for me, a lot of my healing within myself has come from spiritual healing methods, such as Theta Healing and Reiki and just power of intention. And just feeling like I had the power over my own life and could make changes in my own life, which would then create a domino effect into making wider changes outside of myself. And for me, also, the more people that I can help along their own healing journey, the less there is this need for people to compare themselves to one another, to feel like they need to serve some sort of societal hierarchy in order to put their needs before others. I think the more that we hear within ourselves, the more that we're willing to let go of our ego, to let go of our privileges, and want equality. So I think in that respect, spiritual healing is really powerful because it releases people from this need to be sort of self-centred. Because instead, they're centering self-love and love for others. And I think to some people, it sounds a little bit, it's sort of the common term is snowflaky, or sort of soft, but why does everything need to be hard? Why does everything need to be a battle? Why can't change come from a place of softness? Why can't power and softness align with one another and work together? So I know, there's people who are saying, it's not enough. And of course, on its own, it's not but spirituality and activism certainly can work together for making the changes within yourself and making broader changes with the people around you.

Gem: Yeah, I have so many goose bumps right now. This is totally my stuff. It's so yeah, I feel like... I just have so many thoughts. So one thing that pops up for me is, for example, Nova Reid talks about the importance of having conversations with people, and for me that real softness in her work, and like how she communicates, being an activist and talking about anti-racism is completely opposite to what we think about maybe around being an activist - that someone's standing in the street and shouting about saving the climate or whatever it might be. But that softness, I think there's real power and strength in being able to be more vulnerable, and to be able to start those conversations from a place of tenderness rather than maybe shouting at someone to get your point across that never really... it doesn't often work the same as if we're able to kind of align ourselves with people and use those more softer skills.

Jade: Yeah, I think, one of the reasons why I never really sort of saw myself as an activist was because I just didn't feel I had the capacity for being out there on the streets as much as I wanted to. I wanted to get my message across, because of health difficulties, and just for anxiety and things like that, I didn't feel I had the capacity to be out and about on the streets and protesting as much as I wanted to. But then I realised that actually, different voices have different purposes. And for me, while I might not be able to advocate in one way, I certainly can in another. And I think,, a lot of inequality comes from disconnect, and the ability and the inability to see things from one another's perspectives, and focusing on holding tightly onto our own power. Because, you know, we're afraid of what it would mean, if we were to give some of that up, and to support equality. And so I think having real one to one human conversations, actually asking people, what is the fear behind your unwillingness to support equality, what is the fear behind your unwillingness to release your power, and once you get down, and you dig deeper into those fears and those sorts of limiting beliefs that people have, a lot of healing work can take place. And people suddenly are much more open to change, they're much more open to working with other people, they're much more open to being seen for who they are, rather than for what the privilege of their body would give them. So I think, there's so many different types of activism and spiritual activism is one type. And, you know, it shouldn't be overlooked for its power, because I think having one to one conversations with people and working on their self-healing... if we all healed ourselves, there wouldn't be these tensions that we have, because we've been looking to harm others for the sake of feeling better about ourselves. So yes, spirituality is activism within itself, when it's done in the correct way of looking at our world and how we can make changes.

Gem: I guess you mentioned a couple of different techniques that you, yourself have used and you would use with your clients, but it'd be great to hear a little bit more about those and maybe how you feel they've helped you.

Jade: Yeah. So when I started out in spiritual healing, I was invited to do my first training in Angelic Reiki, Angelic Reiki 1 and 2. My mum had done it previous to me and I at the time was not at all spiritual. I'd always been agnostic, because I knew that I couldn't say definitively whether there was a higher power or not. I didn't feel like it was my place to decide but I'd never conformed to any sort of specific belief system. And you know, my mom was going on this virtual path and she was telling me all about Angelic Reiki and working with angels. And I just thought, "What is this woman on about?" But I'd reached a point in my life where I was starting to try and make changes, I'd taken a gap year off of Uni because my mental health was so low, and I just knew I had to make some changes to my life. So when I got invited, I just thought the timing was right. So I went and my first healing as part of the training, I felt this overwhelming sense of connection, and love and support. And I felt held in a way that I'd never felt held before. I felt seen. And I felt acknowledged. And I just cried. I'd been so emotionally repressed and cut off from myself that it was overwhelming to cry in front of a group of women I've never met in my life. I was just sobbing, and they held space for me, and they held me. They acknowledged my pain and they acknowledged how hard it had been for me to love myself and they helped me make that transition into loving myself. And that was the moment that I realised that the way to help other people wasn't just through psychological therapies, it was also through spiritual therapies and finding that connection for themselves.

Jade: So I went on to train to become a Reiki Master. And then I went on to Theta healing, crystal healing lots of different techniques. And I hope to continue on to learning more. For me, Reiki healing is really beautiful and soft, and it's perfect for people who are struggling with things like self-love, and Theta healing is the process of digging down into our belief systems, the things that are holding us back, and working out where they come from, what their origins are, what was the first time we felt like this? What are our trigger points? You know, digging out the negative belief systems to replace them with things that will actually serve us in the highest and best and will bring positivity into our lives, and will allow us to embody all the things that we want to be.

Jade: So I think I needed the Reiki first. I needed to know what it felt like to heal and to be loved. But now, I think Theta healing is sort of the thing that I love the most, because it almost ties in spirituality with psychological healing techniques and it just allows people to realise, you know, when I'm feeling anxious and afraid and worried, what is the cause of this? When was the first time I felt like this? Where is this belief coming from? That, you know, if I'm anxious, because I feel like people are judging me for my body, when was the first time I felt judged for my body? What are the hidden beliefs behind that? Maybe it's because I feel like I'll be rejected. And if I'm rejected, I'll be lonely. And if I'm alone, you know, what else do I have? So digging back down, I think is one of the best techniques that we have for healing and for growth, and for making sure that we can move past the things that have held us back for so long.

Gem: Totally. And I think that's where, and it sounds as though your experience is similar, where sort of traditional talking therapies can often not quite be enough in that, you know, we're just going to talk about this issue. And there's only so much trauma or far you can process when we're just kind of having a cognitive discussion about something. And it sounds like Theta healing is really similar to, I don't know if you're familiar, with Matrix Reimprinting? But that's a technique that I use, which is all about going back to those earliest experiences of that thing. And then working to resource your younger self around what you may have needed. And there's something so powerful, I think in seeing that that is not a feeling or a belief you have about yourself in isolation, that it does actually come from somewhere because quite often we can think what's wrong with me? Why do I have this particular issue? And why can't I just get over it? I've talked about it in therapy, why doesn't it just go away? But actually really digging down as you say, and getting to the root of where that comes from is a really powerful and meaningful experience.

Jade: Yeah, absolutely. And do you know what, I was so excited when I saw that you do EFT and Matrix Reimprinting because they are very similar and actually a couple of my teachers from doing Theta healing were EFT and Matrix Reimprinting practitioners so I had the privilege of seeing how they sort of merged the two. And I got to work with them and see how, you know, that worked in my own healing, as they worked through different issues with me. And that was when I realised, wow, this actually a really powerful technique, and one that I hope to go on to be able to train in at some point, because it's just so beautiful to be able to release people from the belief that they're causing these negative self-perceptions of themselves, because they're not; because we're not born hating ourselves, we're not born feeling the worst about ourselves. Those are things that were taught. And it might not necessarily even be things that are said to us directly. They can just be things that we've witnessed or acknowledged in our lives and taken on as our own. So to be able to release yourself from these beliefs that aren't serving us, I think, is really powerful. And, as you say, talking therapies, I've had a lot of different therapists throughout my life to heal from different things, but spiritual healing really brought the best of talking therapies, and the best of spiritual healing and actually healing from the wounds that we bring up in talking therapies together, it was really powerful to know that I personally had the power to heal these experiences for myself, rather than relying on someone else to heal it for me.

Gem: Yes, and that that idea of like walking alongside a practitioner, someone kind of supporting you and holding space for you, rather than in the kind of, I'm thinking about the capitalist kind of white supremacist world of psychology, as it often is, is like, I'm the expert and you are here for me to fix you. That belief that everyone is whole, everyone's creative, everyone's resourceful, and they can heal themselves, is a very different paradigm, I think to exist in and to work with people around.

Jade: Yeah, definitely, I think, I've always struggled to be told what to do by other people, so I've had a fair few of arguments in my time or disagreements shall we say, with different counsellors that I've had, and also people who have taught me during my time studying psychology, in terms of this belief that the psychologist knows best. Absolutely not. People know, their bodies, they know their minds, and psychologists and the healer brings their tools and brings their knowledge in that respect, but it is always the person, it was always the client that should lead their own healing and should lead their own experience because they know themselves, they know what's hurting them, they just need someone to sort of guide them along the way. And I think that's why I chose life coaching, spiritual life coaching, is because being a life coach is not about telling someone how they should live their life, it is not about dictating certain belief systems to them, which has been my experience in the past with people who call themselves spiritual leaders, their idea is that they must lead you to a certain definition of spirituality, and of healing. But in truth, it's not about that, it's actually about working with people on their own journey towards their own self-healing, and you just being there to support them and maybe share with them some knowledge that you might have learned along your way, because none of us is better than the other. I think this is a common misconception with a lot of spiritual practices is that one person who's on their spiritual healing journey is further ahead or better than another. And it's just not true, you're never completely healed, there is no... you know, you don't get to a sort of final level of completion and then suddenly, you're all knowing and all powerful, and you've got nothing wrong with you, and you can do no wrong. It's not the case, we're here having a human experience, which means that new things will come up, new things that need healing will come up, new experiences will come up and teach us things that we never knew that we could be taught. And it's so beautiful. And clients can teach me things, I think, Wow, I've never thought of that in that way before. How beautiful is that? Just being open, to change, and just being open to knowing that actually, we're all on the same level. And we can all help one another to become a better version of ourselves than we were the day before. I love that part of my work. I love being able to work with people who can teach me new things, and who I can share my own experiences with and together we can both go onwards on our healing journey.

Gem: Yeah, and I don't know if you have a similar experience, but I've noticed very much in my work that people show up to work with me around things that I often need to learn or work on myself.

Jade: Yeah.

Gem: I started out, you know, working with people around self-empowerment and activism. And actually, I noticed that we may have a particular session and the client brings a thing, and I'm like, wow, this is just the thing that I've actually been thinking about recently or have been working on. It's this co-co creation of healing and learning together. I think that's so powerful.

Gem: Here's your now episodely - is that a word I'm not sure - your episodely reminder to take some breaths and to have a drink of water and maybe think about whether you need something to eat or not. And while you do that, I just wanted to let you know that I have a couple of client spots opening up from February so if you're interested in working with a practitioner who is trauma-informed, and who uses a blend of different techniques, such as a transformational coaching, EFT (tapping) and also Matrix Reimprinting, then do head to my website www.gemkennedy.com, where you can find out more and also book a free intro call. And now I'll let you get back to Jade.

Gem: Like I'm obsessed with queering everything. There's something really queer in that not waiting for someone to give you the certification for this very... for this particular... what am I trying to say? I guess when I first trained as a coach, I thought, you know, I have to do things by the textbook, how I've been taught them on my course. And when I want to incorporate something new, I need to go and study that for a couple of years and then incorporate that. And actually, what I've learned is like drawing on lots of different techniques and being able to build and create your own practice is so much more effective, because you know who you're working with. And as long as consent is involved people can say at any point, "This doesn't work for me", or "I'm not too keen on that", whatever it might be, there's something really cool and really queer about actually being able to do things in a way that works, rather than needing this kind of certification from an authority where... and that's something you might need if you're a psychiatrist or a psychologist, and I know know that they're working in a different paradigm, but yeah, I don't know if any of that's making sense?

Jade: Oh, absolutely. I was just smiling the whole way through you talking because that's just exactly how I feel, I think I would get frustrated within psychology at how if you wanted to do something, it had to be something that someone had already done. Or you need to be able to give a lot of empirical evidence as to why something works, but actually, if it works for someone, why do we need to explain why it works? You know, if someone's saying, yes, this is helping me heal, then let's help them heal in the way that works for them. We don't need to do long studies into why, we don't need to try and explain and reason everything, sometimes we just need to heal and that's okay. And I just love that spiritual healing gives you that opportunity to be fully expressive, to fully explore your needs without having to label it or define it and again, steps away from this practitioner/client mentality in that one is superior to the other because we're not, we're just the same, we're all going through a healing experience. And actually, I just think those healing methods are so freeing, and so beautiful, because they centre the person's growth in whatever capacity they want to grow. And we learn so much from one another, and just yeah, I'm so glad that it came into my life. And I think it was always meant to come, I just never anticipated it. But I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to always be learning from other people.

Gem: Yeah, it's a real privilege, isn't it to be able to do this kind of work?

Jade: Oh, absolutely. And just to meet new people, when we meet the people that, you know, as you said before, that we're meant to meet and I think when I first started out, I thought, "Oh, is anyone gonna really want to work with me on this?" And I quickly had to quash that belief and address it because I just realised, actually, if I want to do this, then I will do it. And the people who are on the same wavelength as me who resonate with me, and my journey will come in at the right time because they will see what I'm doing, they'll be drawn to what I'm doing, because they'll be on the same journey as me. And they'll want to walk that path with me or they won't. And either way, that's absolutely fine, so long as we're all kind of informed and consenting to our spiritual healing journey, we will find the people that we're meant to find, I think that's sort of the best thing really about these techniques is that they do draw in the people who resonate with it and who want to experience it, as well as you.

Gem: Yeah, totally. And I don't think this would be a complete interview without talking about your creative outlets. There are so many cool ones. So I really want to make sure that we have space to talk about those if that's okay. So I guess first of all, maybe if you could just share the different forms that your creativity takes.

Jade: Yeah, so I started out studying art when I was at school, but it was always sort of, I have a family (not all of my family but some members of my family) who are quite academically orientated so art was always something that should be a hobby and not a lifestyle, or something that you should pursue in terms of career. So I sort of left the art to one side and just tried to focus on my academics, but writing and creative writing, expressing myself and my experiences through emotive writing, supported me throughout my time at university. And that was the time that I really got back into writing poetry. And it came to mean a lot to me, because at the time, as I was still healing and in the early stages of my healing, I really struggled with things, like this. A couple of years ago, I could never see myself doing a podcast because I just didn't feel like I had the strength of voice, I didn't feel like I could properly express myself or articulate myself through my spoken voice. So writing and being able to be creative with my writing, was my best outlet for my emotions of the healing, and for putting my experiences out into the world. And the more that I did that, and the more that I healed myself, the more I realised that actually, my voice doesn't have to be limited to writing. And that's when I sort of got back into art and I'd healed a lot of the perfectionist side of me as well. That was a big thing I struggled with while I was younger, because I felt like everything that I did had to be perfect. My fellow students at school would always laugh in my art classes and they'd be like, "Oh, it's just such a terrible thing for you to do", because I would tear out pages from my artwork and throw them in the bin after spending hours and hours on a specific painting or something. And they all thought it was just a quirky trait of mine, but in reality, it was the pressure to always be perfect because I felt like I was imperfect in myself. The work that I put out had to be perfect to make up for my imperfections. So the more that I healed from that, the more that I realised, actually I love art, I love art in lots of different forms. And I started allowing myself to be creative again. And suddenly, I didn't look at my paintings through this lens of perfection, I just looked at them through what emotions that they portrayed for me, and for what they meant to me and what I'd felt while I was creating them, and they sort of became snapshots in time almost of my emotions and of my experiences and what I wanted to put out into the world. And suddenly I didn't see them as imperfect, I saw them as beautiful because they were mine and because they were unique. So yeah, writing and poetry and art have sort of become my main outlets, my creative outlets for expressing myself, but also for healing because often I see so much in them that speaks towards my healing journey,

Gem: I was going to ask what are the benefits? What have the benefits been? So it definitely sounds like it's been helpful around supporting yourself with healing. And I wonder... because for me I was really terrible, I can say that, very terrible at art at school, to the point where my teacher would like turn my painting upside down because she couldn't recognise what it was. And that really kind of taught me from a very early age that I couldn't engage in creativity that that wasn't something I was good at. And it's only really since, yeah, probably since starting my practice that I've actually realised that creativity is for everyone and there is space to be creative in any way that feels good to you. And as you say, it doesn't have to be perfect. It's actually about the doing of it, rather than the outcome. And I wonder if you notice how creativity might support you, around your advocacy or activism and also around your work as a healer?

Jade: Yeah, I definitely think just being able to express yourself. I mean that broke my heart when you were saying about the teacher turning your work upside down, because I think that was something I was taught is that if you can't immediately recognise what something is, it's somehow wrong. And we have this very linear idea of what expression should look like and I think that was why I stopped doing art for a long time was because I thought it had to be realism, it had to be perfect and look like the thing I was drawing. I think that's why I turned to doing things that weren't necessarily portraits, that were actually sort of much more creative and expressive and sometimes more abstract. I think I still focus on drawing bodies at the moment because of my work within body positivity. I think sometimes we can express things through art that people might not resonate through the spoken or written word. So for me, I try to draw bodies in the way that I see them something beyond just the physical form. They are a part of nature, they are a connection to the spiritual world. They are us outside of our looks, they embody us quite literally. So I tried to draw forms that are embodiments of nature and I try to draw people in a creative way, because I want people to see that bodies are creative. They are pieces of art within themselves. They're unique. And it is their uniqueness that makes them beautiful. It isn't looking a certain way that makes you beautiful, it is being you that makes you beautiful, because there's no one else like you, you are unique. And then, you know, the more I realised that the more I realised, why would I ever want my painting or my drawing or my artistic expression to look like someone else's work when it's mine, and it's expressive, and it's unique? That is what makes art art in the first place. It's differing points of view. So I think not only is art healing, and a part of the spiritual experience, but it's also a form for telling a story and a useful tool for activism where sometimes words just can't quite express enough.

Gem: Yeah. And it makes me think as well, that as well as all of those things, it's also another way of making work accessible to people. So people with different neurotypes, for example, or different learning styles, who maybe can't access the written word, or who couldn't access it in the way that might be expected to actually be able to represent an idea or something in another way is really powerful.

Jade: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's something that I've not really considered that much before, but I think you're absolutely right. Not all forms of expression are as accessible as another. So being able to put your message across through as many mediums as possible, you'll make your message more accessible. So again, I think this is another reason why art's to beautiful because everyone sees it differently. I think, with the written word, there's sort of almost one way to read it and that's it, but with art, everyone takes from it what they need to take from it. So it's just so diverse in that respect.

Gem: Yeah, so true. I've absolutely loved our chat so far. And I feel like yeah, there are just so many interesting things there. And I'm conscious of time. So I wondered if there was anything that you wanted to share that you've been enjoying recently, whether it's a person or an idea, or a thing?

Jade: Oh, um, I think I love I love love touring. I got into it, because I went on a whim to a couple of years ago now to an Anti Diet Riot Club life drawing class in person, and I didn't know what to expect and then they asked at some point, "Would anyone like to get up and be a model?" And for some reason, some force just raised my hand for me. I was sort of looking at my own arm like "What's happening?"

Gem: That's amazing!

Jade: Yeah so I just got up and I stripped down to just knickers and just let a group of people draw me and I was sat there. And for the whole five minutes, I was sat there, I was just reflecting on "Am I really doing this? Am I just allowing people to see my naked body right now?" So I love life drawing, and life modelling. And I think there's so many different people online that are doing life drawing classes that are much more diverse than they used to be because I went to a few life drawing classes when I was at uni and it was always a very similar looking model. Whereas now I think people are realising that people want to see different bodies, they want to draw different bodies and it's so cathartic to draw different bodies and it's so empowering to see how different human forms look when they're feeling vulnerable. Yeah, so if you're looking for a self-love sort of practice that's accessible to lots of people, then lifedrawing would definitely be something I would recommend, because it just makes you look at the body as art. It makes you look at it in a whole new way, that I think we've forgotten how to look at bodies before.

Gem: Yeah, that's so interesting. I have seen so many people doing lifedrawing classes. And I've always felt held back by my ability to kind of draw or express what I'm seeing. But actually, there's something about just dropping it in like giving it a go, that sounds really appealing.

Jade: Oh, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I love specifically, about Anti Diet Riot Club's virtual lifedrawing classes is that they do sort of games and activities before getting into the longer poses and the longer drawings, where they challenge you to not focus on the outcome of your drawing, but just on appreciating body and form and lines and shape. So they'll do things like make you draw with your non-dominant hand for a minute, or draw just looking at the paper without looking at the model, or vice versa just look at the model without looking at the paper, things like that that gets you out of that perfectionism mindset and just allows you to focus on the activity within itself and not focus on what you think the end product will be. I think that's just wonderful because it just allows you to be in the moment, rather than focusing on perfection.

Gem: Yeah, that's so great. I have to give it a try.

Jade: Absolutely yeah.

Gem: So we'll share the links of where everyone can come and find you if they want to follow your work, which I highly recommend they do. And also check out your art. You have an Etsy shop, don't you?

Jade: Yeah, I just set it up.

Gem: Yeah so I'll share the link for that. And then I wonder what's next for you?

Jade: Oh, do you know what? I don't know. I think at the moment, I'm focusing on self-development, just trying to sort of do some online courses and make sure that I'm keeping up with my own sort of healing journey. I want to keep adding to my Etsy store. It's still quite new. But I think I'm just trying to focus on creative expression, especially. There's less going on at the moment. I think it's a very healing activity to just to express myself. And yeah, who knows? In the future, I'd love to go on and study transpersonal counselling. Yeah, I just want to continue my journey and I want to continue helping other people in as many different capacities as I can. I've got my online group, A Safe Space to Grow, where we're focusing on lots of different things from self-love to body positivity to spiritual healing. And I want to be able to keep doing that for others. And for myself, really.

Gem: Great. Sounds amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me Jade, it has been really great to talk to you. And I really would recommend that people come and check out your work.

Jade: Oh, thank you so much. It's been so wonderful talking to you. Thank you for having me. 

Gem: I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed that conversation with Jade. I loved everything about it and I have so much to think about now. I hope that you found it useful and that you have some things to be thinking about too. If you want to check out Jade's work, I'd highly recommend that you follow her on Instagram. Her handle is @bodiposipoet. You can also find her Etsy shop links on her website but also I will add all of the relevant links into the show notes. And that's it for today. Thanks again for listening and I look forward to sharing another amazing guest with you next week. Bye!