Rubyyy Jones

I’m put back where it all began - Series 2, Episode 1

In this episode, I’m joined by Rubyyy Jones (they/them), an artist, performer and space maker who specialises in the body, the bawdyyy and deep feels. As an artist they work in live art, photography and film, creating a spectrum of experiences from silly to sublime. They are an icon in the world's of Drag, Burlesque and Cabaret and a Mxther and mentor to many in the industry.  

Two years after our first interview together, we chat about rediscovering moving for joy in lockdown, neurodivergence and accessibility, moving back to their childhood neighbourhood in Canada, re-parenting ourselves and the queer community, Tony Clifton as a gateway to drag king-ing and lots more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Rubyyy and their partner Prinx Lydia created and run The YYY School which includes many different kinds of performance, craft and personal development workshops, both online and in the flesh. Together they share a passion for accessible, atypical and amazing art, The YYY School encompasses all of that.

You can find out more about Rubyyy’s work on the following Instagram accounts:

@rubyyyjones, @lifedrawingrubyyy, @theyyyschool, @prinxlydia

And consider becoming a patron on www.patreon.com/SaveRubyyyJones

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co. - the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy. My pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Hi everyone! Welcome to Series 2 of Queers & Co. I'm so excited to be back and to be able to share all of my brilliant guests with you. I've got 13 guests for this coming series and I've recorded about half of the episodes so far. And honestly, I can't wait to put them all out. I hope you're going to get lots from them and find them interesting, insightful, and maybe share them with anyone that you think might be interested in hearing what my guests have to say as well.

The world is in a pretty different place now from when I recorded the first series in 2020. So I think the last couple of episodes, we'd just gone into lockdown in March 2020 and now here we are in January 2021. The UK has just entered another lockdown. I hope you're all keeping safe and well, no matter where in the world you are.

It felt really meaningful to me to have this guest as my first guest for the second series. I first spoke to them two years ago when I was just starting out with the Queers & Co. project and I interviewed them to find out about their relationship with their body. And since then we have crossed paths multiple times and I just think they are brilliant so I'm really excited to be able to share the interview with you. They are an awesome artist, a performer, a space maker and if you are in need of any kind of cheering up or cool activities to do online, then I'd highly recommend that you check out their work. We talk a bit about that during the episode, but you'll also be able to find out more in the shownotes and I'll point you in the right direction at the end of the episode.

As always, if you enjoy hearing from my guests, please do let them know. It's really nice for them to just know that people out there are listening and that they appreciate what they have to say. And if you'd like to continue the conversation about any of the episodes, please do join the Queers & Co. Facebook group, because we'll be having some discussions in there and also, it's a really great space for anyone wanting to share any projects they're working on, find collaborators or to get any more insights into particular topics that might be of interest to them, to get resources, that kind of thing. So hopefully see you there. And without further ado, I will introduce my first guest of series two - the wonderful Rubyyy Jones.

Hi, Rubyyy, thanks so much for joining me.

Rubyyy: Thanks so much for having me, Gem.

Gem: Not at all. It's exciting, because I was thinking earlier, it's two years since we had our first conversation.

Rubyyy: Oh my gosh, really?

Gem: Yeah, it's gone really quickly. And we've seen each other in between, but like when I interviewed you for the zine, it was two years ago, which is wild. So much has happened since then until now. And I was conscious that the version of the interview that we had before was written so it'd be really cool to have a podcast version and to catch up.

Rubyyy: Well, great. I'm happy to be here. I love chatting with you. So yeah, thanks for asking me to come on the podcast.

Gem: Not at all. And so for anyone who doesn't know who you are, how would you introduce yourself?

Rubyyy: Gosh, well, given these nebulous times we're in at the moment, I feel I don't have as defined a definition of self other than - Hi, I'm Rubyyy (that's with three y's) Jones, and I'm an artist and a space maker.

Gem: Awesome. Yeah, that sounds so different from how you've introduced yourself in other settings before, what shifted there?

Rubyyy: Well, with COVID and all the situations in the world, a big thing that I would have used to describe myself in that interview probably would have been a performer, which of course, I still think of myself as a performer, I always will. But because of how I've had to shift my creative performance aspect of self, it feels a little bit more like I want to use the term artist because it feels like it encompasses more of what I'm doing now. And includes performance as well.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And some of the things that you're doing now, people may have come across during lockdown, but they're really exciting. So you have Everybodyyy Move, which you do every weekday, is that right?

Rubyyy: Yes. Well, we do it six days a week because we've added now on Saturday, we do a seated version, because I've done seated versions in the past and they were really popular but I was only doing recorded but now I was like no, we need to do it live. We need that live energy. So we've added that on Saturdays too.

Gem: And how would you describe it for anyone who has no idea what we're talking about?

Rubyyy: Yeah, so Everybodyyy Move is a not-a-workout workout, which is 30 minutes of moving your body, perhaps challenging your body, flexing your body and enjoying your body. A big thing that I feel like I understood last year was I've had different blocks in my life around elective exercise and movement because of my trepidation and trauma from diet culture. And Everybodyyy Move is about supporting each other to move our bodies in a healthy way that is separate to concepts of caloric burn, or abs or any other of that kind of, again, diet culture kind of stuff. It's just about moving your body, improving things like balance, and coordination and all that kind of stuff. It's about supporting each other to do that as well in a way that feels fun and accessible. So it's not a paid class, like you don't have to buy tickets, you just have to be there. And if you want to tip after we gratefully, of course, always accept a little bit of energetic exchange, but we just made it because - we being my partner, Prinx Lydia, and I - we wanted to move more, we wanted to have a kind of support for that. And then we thought, well, probably other people need that too so we just invited other people to join us.

Gem: It's great. And yeah, it's so interesting hearing you say that that was one of the realisations that you've had over lockdown over the past year because I've also had loads of blocks around exercise and movement. And I think we talked before about this - I really used to love dancing and performing and then diet culture kicked in, and like it disappeared - not the love but just I guess the the confidence to do it. And there was something about feeling so uncomfortable with my body getting sweaty, or getting a red face, so many kind of layers upon layers of just not good stuff that I had around exercise. And 2020 was really the year that I actually started to move for enjoyment. And it didn't feel like a punishment any more. So it's really interesting to hear that you've had a similar... I know that you were performing before so obviously you were doing lots of movement anyway, but it's just interesting to hear that you've had a similar kind of realisation or development.

Rubyyy: Yeah, definitely. Because I did do some performing during lockdown, like some online shows and stuff and you know, I really enjoyed it. But it was nowhere near the schedule that I was keeping before and in a lot of ways I was using my performance as a big physical outlet, and in a few ways, and I think what was interesting about all of us in COVID times (it's not like they aren't continuing, of course) but the thing is, it's like a reevaluation of what we want in our life on every level. And understanding that that actually is a choice. And partly, that's because we all ended up kind of almost with a blank canvas in a way. Obviously we had responsibilities and school and work and whatever else, but there was a new level of autonomy somehow through isolation that I think helped a lot of us to realise like, "Oh, I actually want to do this."

Gem: Yeah and I guess when the options that maybe people might feel they have to do are stripped away, for example, if you want to move your body, maybe you would think you have to go to the gym, or you have to go to a class in a studio or something. When those options are stripped away, maybe there's something about rediscovering the types of movement that actually feel good, rather than what you feel you should do.

Rubyyy: Yes, totally. Exactly. And it's like, as well, even though there was a lot of fatphobia around everyone gaining weight in lockdown, I feel like there was also a kind of thing of people feeling that the exercise and the movement itself wasn't directly related to that. It was about feeling active in a number of ways. It was about mental health, it was about, you know, filling your day with things that make you feel good. You know, even though I know a lot of people would have still felt some of those pressures of, you know, "maintaining" during the lockdown or whatever bullshit, I do think a lot of people came to it because they realised how helpful and important it was in different ways basically, in ways separate to what they would have thought before.

Gem: Yeah, and I wonder what the shift's been like for you moving from performing and teaching a lot in person to then kind of having to remodel your business essentially. And I guess make sure that that work is still fulfilling your creative and performance outputs.

Rubyyy: Yeah, that's true. And I've been really lucky that I do feel like the various events we've come up with, we do have a lot of outlets for movement, for feelings, for creating, for, you know, being spontaneous. And it's so funny because people keep saying to me, "Oh, you're killing lockdown and you're making it happen." I'm like, I'm surviving. I am surviving like the rest of you. Like, yes, I want to be doing these things. But also I have to, you know, I've lost all of my income. And so I had to make something happen.

Rubyyy: However - very lucky, I love what we've come up with. I love how we made it work. And a lot of what we've created has been directly to yes supplement and support income, but also supplement and support all the amazing things we got from performing and teaching. So we're pretty much doing things seven days a week, which is kind of interesting, but not like I wasn't doing seven days a week before. And we have the Everybodyyy Move, which is six days a week, which is a really great outlet for community and I know it doesn't, quite feel the same sometimes. But I'm starting to feel like the online community is feeling the same for me, especially as someone who is neurodivergent, I can find in-person stuff actually very, very challenging. And I actually didn't know how challenging it was for me until I didn't have to do that anymore. You know, of course, I miss giving people hugs and sharing a sweaty dance studio together, but I actually don't see myself ever going back to that, at least not in that way. Not with that frequency, I just literally can't do it. And I didn't know I couldn't do it because I didn't know I was coping and just holding it together so much before. Whereas now, I you know, still feel that create connection with my students and community and creativity without dealing with the rest, the processing and the proximity of constantly being around people. I love people, but I'm liking them at the other end of the camera very much as well.

Gem: I so relate to that. And I guess is that something that you expected when you stopped, when lockdown kicked in first and you thought, "Right, that's it, I'm going to have to work from home now"? Was there that kind of realisation that "Wow, this will give me extra processing time and it will be nice to have a bit of space", or was it something that emerged as lockdown went on?

Rubyyy: I think it was a bit of both to be honest, because I was previously living in London, London is so crazy. And to go anywhere, pretty much it would take an hour. So for me to teach an hour dance class, that would be three hours at an absolute minimum of commitment, which included a lot of high stress, like going on the tube and then teaching and then after being depleted from teaching going on the tube again, and the stress of that. I knew that that was going to be removed so I was kind of excited about the prospect of yeah, not having that constant bombardment. But I couldn't have anticipated how much it would help me to be able to do the things I want to do and to do them more completely and with more presence, I guess. Because when you're on camera teaching you have to be really present. To do it well, you have to be really present, you have to be really considering all the factors all at once. You have to be really thinking about many, many things, and I'm really good at that but only for a short period of time.

Gem: That's exhausting!

Rubyyy: Yeah exactly. That's true. That's true. But I can do that, in a way I think is like, you know, special to be honest. Um, but I can't do that when I'm just super exhausted and like taking an hour to get across London to get to a dance studio. Like, I didn't realise how much how much that was until... I thought I knew that's what I mean. I thought I knew I thought, "Oh, gosh, that's a nice to have a little break". Then I was like "Well actually, I can never do that again".

Gem: Yeah, and that I relate to that in so many ways. Like one moving out of London was like "Wow, this is different" and and two I think just in lockdown just having space like having sometimes endless amounts of space where there was a time where we didn't know when it was going to end and today we've just gone back into lockdown in the UK and now they're saying at least until March. So there's like just this long space of time. And what do you put in it, I mean, unless obviously some people are having to still go out to work or work from home, but if you do have these spaces of time, that's something that's really inaccessible in normal everyday life, like to actually explore things creatively or to come up with new ways of doing things.

Rubyyy: Totally and like I noticed it in parts of my life separate to work in that, you know, my partner Lydia and I, we'd really struggled to be able to manage all the day in and day out kinds of stuff. Don't get me wrong, our house wasn't like a tip or anything, but it was like was our laundry always regularly done and never overflowing? And now it feels like we have capacity to actually do human everyday life because we're not putting all of our energy into recovering from work and doing work.

Gem: And talking of being at home, or you've now recently moved to Canada, was it this month or last month?

Rubyyy: It was last month. At the end of the month we moved to Ottawa just for a month because we were really lucky to have a place available there for us to quarantine and have the holidays. And then we moved again last week. And we're in my home town now.

Gem: Oh, my goodness. So whereabouts is that?

Rubyyy: Paris, Ontario, Canada.

Gem: Okay. And how's it going so far?

Rubyyy: So far, so tricky. It's like everywhere I go, I'm hit with 20 years of unprocessed information. From my birth till I left, basically, it feels like I'm just, it's just everywhere. And it's really interesting. I'm living with my mom at the moment and where she lives is  directly in the neighbourhood I grew up with. And it's like, there's that time I fell on my bike and skinned my knee, there's that time I did this, there's that time I did that. I'm liking it, but it's also oh my gosh, I'm not gonna lie so, much daily. Yeah, so much and it's almost like my 13 years in London, again because of a lot of things, I was so disconnected from my home and my family and who I was before I moved to England, it was like, everything was about my life in the UK. And then now it's like, oh yeah, I had a life before then. I'm just processing all that, basically.

Gem: Yeah, that sounds like a lot to process and moving to back to, I'm imagining, quite a different country from what you left, because that was quite some time ago.

Rubyyy: Yes, that's true. And trying to understand what that even means now, you know, it's really tricky. You can have the sense from your own family, or the people that you know, but really trying to get a sense of it kind of like wider, more generally, it feels tricky.

Gem: Yeah. What does that mean for... I have so many questions. Hang on, what do I want to ask? Yeah, I guess I'm thinking, what does that mean for performing? And for the work that you have done in the past? Is it that you'll kind of stick with doing online stuff? And is it possible to do the work that you were doing before, from where your based now?

Rubyyy: So some of it is because I have to say, I don't see anything returning to near normal this year. And I've been I guess maybe I feel like optimistic and I feel hopeful about "things returning to normal", but pretty early on, I was like, alright, this is some fuckery shenanigans. Humans are trying to rush something that is biological, is of nature, it cannot be rushed. We can't be pushing and pushing and pushing for anything to be what it was because things take time. And I felt like - and I'm not going to be too like whatever about this - but you know, a lot of people said "Oh COVID reminded us how much time we didn't have and how much time things take" and I'm like, "Yeah, no, but literally, she's gonna need some more time." All these things with the different developments in the vaccine and like can we mix this and now these new strains and all this and that it's like, I don't know why, well I do - capitalism - why it felt like like, "Okay, we'll just sort it out and everything will be back to normal". Really early on I was like, absolutely not, that is not happening. That's not the way this is gonna go because it's not the way things go. And so I've kind of felt that way this year in that, I want to continue evolving and producing content online, because I've also realised it's inaccessible to people to constantly require physical presence. And that was one thing that really struck me at the beginning of doing my dance workshops online was I would have whatever number of people in the class and probably an absolute maximum of 20% of them could have actually taken my class in person when I was running it. It was like everyone else was in a different country, in a different part of the country, in a different part of the world. And I started to think, why wouldn't I continue doing this? Why wouldn't I? Why would I want to make myself inaccessible to other individuals, and it's not just people in other countries. Obviously, there's lots of things that make going to a show at the RVT inaccessible. And I don't like that.

Gem: Because I guess when you think of a physical class, where you're in a space teaching something, you imagine it has to be in person, but actually, why would you from a business point of view limit your audience, and if you want to bring your work to as many people as possible, why would you do that? Yeah it doesn't really make any sense.

Rubyyy: Yeah, exactly and also, for me a lot of my ethos previously around accessibility was for different bodies, different genders, people who felt excluded, maybe more socially, or whatever. And to me, it's just a continuation on some of my understanding of accessibility basically, and what it really means to say everyone is welcome if you then have it in an inaccessible venue in London that cost £15 to get in.

Gem: Yeah and I think with the communities that you work with also there's that added element, isn't there, like working with the queer community, and potentially people who might want to come to class, but maybe might feel unsafe to do that? Yeah, there's so much there.

Rubyyy: Yeah, it's so amazing in that way, and it's like really blown my mind that I hadn't thought of it sooner. But I didn't. And actually, finally, I had already been doing teaching online, but there were little hiccups along the way that made me stop trying. So originally, I started doing webinars and I thought, "Oh, why don't I just do my other workshops online?" and Zoom probably was a thing at that time, but I didn't know about it. It was maybe four or five years ago that I started teaching online and things like music copyright - I would try to run a workshop on Facebook and then Facebook kicked me off or whatever. And it's because of a few technological things as well it's been a little bit more possible, which is really exciting. And, yeah it's just feels good, because it feels like more sustainable for everybody involved and for me personally, to do what we're doing online. And that's dance classes, that's one-off workshops and lip sync or performance, but we're also doing life drawing classes, which happen on Mondays weekly and that started to become quite an outlet for me for dressing up. I definitely need that. I need to do that, I need to drag up, I need to dress up. It's a big part of me expressing my creativity and myself.

Gem: Yeah, yeah and that brings me on actually to another question that I was keen to ask you about. So you and Lydia have been doing these amazing online letters to the queer community as though you're their parents. And if anyone hasn't come across them, you should absolutely go to Rubyyy's Instagram and check them out. But how did that come about? Like what inspired you both to do that?

Rubyyy: So we did that because - I'm not being secretive, to be anything but confidential. So one of us got an email from a parent in that time, that we found really upsetting and felt like this person didn't understand, actually, what specifically as queer artists and self-employed people we were up against in that time. And it felt like, I don't know, I can't think of what the word is, I want to say like wish-fulfilment. It's like a combination of wish-fulfilment and revenge fantasy, in that we were like, what is the email we wish we would have got, and so we wrote it and then we decided to do this funny photo to go with it and only funny because it is just kind of funny - humorous, I would say. But the letters themselves are heartfelt and they're serious and they're the way that we're learning how to parent ourselves and we're sharing that with other people in a way. The Ma and Pa letters have continued because we really love doing them and each time we do it we're usually inspired by something in our life that we feel we want support on or we can see other people want support on. We want to be those supportive parents. Did you know as well that's like a whole trend on TikTok now.

Gem: Oh, is it it?

Rubyyy: And I'm not saying we started or anything. I've discovered it since because I've kind of discovered TikTok properly since then. And yeah, there's all these amazing people. Some of them will do it wordlessly with music like people do on TikTok, but it's always like point of view, we're your queer parents and we just came home early and then the twist is we're like "Have fun" and leave or whatever. And then there's other people who do it where they'll talk to camera, as if they were reading one of our letters out loud kind of thing, like similar advice type things or support type things. It's really amazing. I absolutely love TikTok. I honestly just think it's so cool. I think I said this to you. I think we had this conversation. I was like, get on it.

Gem: I did, I did go on it, but then I got so absorbed. I was like, okay, I really have to come off of this or I'll just never get anything done. Yeah, that's cool. I wonder if you did start it. How awesome is that?

Rubyyy: Well, whether we started it or not, I just feel like it's fun to be part of waves of things like that. And it was kind of reassuring to stumble on that as a thing, because I was like, okay, this is an energy that's out there. And it feels really cool to be a part of it because I think a lot of it really does come from just wanting to make the world a better place and just wanting people to feel okay.

Gem: Oh, hey there, I hope you're enjoying the episode so far. Here's a reminder just to take a few breaths, and to drink some water. And while you do that, here's something you may not know. I'm a transformational practitioner. And I work one to one mainly with queer and neurodivergent folks who are into social change in some way. If you'd like to find out more about working with me, head to www.gemkennedy.com where you can book a free intro call. And now I'll let you get back to Rubyyy.

Gem: Yeah, and that re-parenting thing, it's such a... Yeah, I find it's such a fascinating subject. But thinking about sort of going through lockdown and having to shift your business and the way that you work and your creativity to almost entirely a different mode and then moving back to the town that you grew up in. What re-parenting has been going on for you if that doesn't feel too personal to ask?

Rubyyy: Well, it's slow at the moment, because I just feel like in the last few weeks, I've just been like a bratty asshole child. Because of just dealing with so much and processing so much, and how I've taken care of my child is I've been like, "Okay, you've had enough, let's go have some time and space away" because one thing I've always known is that I was a sensitive person. But unfortunately, I kind of demonised my sensitivity through how society taught me to do that. And one thing that I really have understood this year is that it's a gift but... it's a gift, full stop. But also I need to protect myself more and that doesn't necessarily mean be on guard all the time. It means I need to rest more, I need to be more honest about what are my environment triggers or food triggers for bad mood or whatever it might be. I've had to be a little bit more honest with myself about some of those things because out of the want to actually help myself feel a little bit more peaceful and feel a little bit more capable. It is a lot. I honestly feel like I'm not totally processing everything I can right now. Well, because I am processing everything I can right now, I'm not processing everything right now. And especially this week, it's like we're back from holiday, we're in a new place. I have seven days of events all in a row, all different stuff. And at the moment it has kind of got into the work mode work and rest mode, alternating between that, but that's still an improvement on where I would have been in parenting myself previously, because there would have been almost no rest.

Gem: Yeah and I think being a queer person as well particularly, there can be some really important re-parenting that needs to go on. And I guess that may be why so many people have found your letters really helpful. To have those kind of... Yeah, that understanding from elders, you're obviously playing the roles of elders in those situations, and that they maybe hadn't received in their younger years.

Rubyyy: Yeah. And, I'm still constantly blown away by how rejected people are by their own family. And that comes from a place of -ish privilege for me and I haven't been rejected by my family. Can they get the pronouns right? Will I get them right eventually? Probably. Are they going to be gobsmacked when they understand that I'm considering top surgery or those things? Yes. But are they going to not want me to be in their life and not near their children or whatever? No, but so many people are. And I just feel like, it's just such a shame. And I've come to the point in my life, where I feel pretty sure I'm not going to have my own biological children, but I've never felt a real lack of that, because of the way I've been able to be such a part of people's lives through my mentorship. And the way I feel connected to them. I'm well aware it's not the same thing as birthing someone, but at the same time, I think we're about ready in society to let go some of our constructs around everything, and that includes what is a parent and who is a parent, and who parents. I haven't been the sole parent to any one individual, but I've seen queer youth through big, important parts of their life. And it's helped me to realise I deserve the same kind of care and rest and encouragement of different things like that, that I give to other people.

Gem: Yeah, definitely. And I remember when we first talked about your work, we were talking about your qids with a 'q', and how they would come round to your house and use your makeup and all kinds of things. And that's just such a cool community to be able to facilitate for people and to be part of.

Rubyyy: Yeah, and I feel happy that that can translate online as well, but also that it can kind of translate through art, as opposed to that direct individual interaction, because although I'm keeping up direct individual interaction and support, it feels exciting that it can be for more people actually and kind of for more people with less effort than it would take to impact them all individually, essentially, or interact with them individually. And it feels really good. And it feels good because again, I don't want to return to a place where I'm constantly giving everything of myself till I don't have anything left to give, you know.

Gem: Mm hmm.

Rubyyy: And that's such a place that lots of parents go - biological and otherwise. And, you know, that's a learned thing of something somewhere along the way, right?! And it's something I really, really would like to deeply unlearn. Truly.

Gem: Mm hmm. Yeah and you mentioned earlier, considering potentially having top surgery, and we've talked before about your relationship with your body. I just wondered how that is evolving for you over time and what it means being non-binary in your new environment. I know it's still very new, but what are your thoughts around those kinds of things?

Rubyyy: It's so funny, because yeah so we've been in Canada just I guess six weeks maybe. And we've been in my hometown for not a week yet. But I already am like, I'm gonna be queer and gay or whatever... In London, I started to feel like maybe for me, it felt like in London, there were other people being more visibly queer. And so they didn't need my energies to do that, you know, I could I still look like a dyke to most people's eyes and mind anyway, whatever that might mean. But it is what it is. And I've started to feel already like I'm gonna wear crazy colours and I want to push myself out there further because I'm not seeing many queers in the village and I'd like to see more. And sometimes it helps to see others around. It's made me feel much more like I want to express my queerness more overtly. Also, when it comes to my body physical body, specifically, I think it's a little bit of a thing for me that I hadn't previously considered surgery as far as affirming my gender, because it just wasn't what was right at the time. But as I age, and as I'm getting older, my body's changing more, it's changing more in a way that I feel is not what I want and not what I feel is me basically. And that's like something that I feel is coming a little bit more with age more than anything else otherwise shifting in my body perhaps. Yeah and also, it's kind of funny. Lydia and I were talking about it some time over 2020. When I was smaller physically, I didn't really have much of a chest and the only reason I have a bust is because I'm bigger now physically and I think I never really connected with having breasts, and except for when I first got them because I was one of those who actually, literally woke up one day and I had boobs and everyone thought I stuffed my bra because it literally was like BAM! overnight.

Gem: Oh, wow.

Rubyyy: But I remember just being so bothered by them. They're just so in the way, like, there's crumbs all over them. I'm bashing into doorways. But you know, I didn't recognise that as dysphoria at the time. And I'm sure every young person who develops breasts has a certain level of "What the fuck is this?!" when they're first happening, to some degree or another, but it's like, now as my body is changing more, and I have bigger bras and like, all these things, I just realised how much it doesn't feel like me to have them. And so funny because now I desperately want a breastplate, which for those who don't know, a breastplate is a silicone costume piece that people wear so they have breasts, and some people wear them in day to day life. Sorry, it's not always costume. But it is all drag darlings! So I have this kind of obsession now of having these really big silicone breasts, but I don't want the really big natural ones.

Gem: Uh huh.

Rubyyy: would like my everyday body to be more neutral. And then it makes me feel like I want my drag to be even more femme and bodaciously womaaan.

Gem: Yeah, and that experimenting with gender and I guess playing with drag is something that we talked about before. It feels like when people have the chance to do that, it really helps them to develop a sense of self and I guess just get more in touch with their body even by dressing in ways that aren't like their body or changing parts of it. And you know, for performance or just just for fun at home. But yeah, what has that been like kind of going through that process of trying on lots of different... I don't know how to, I guess I don't want to say personas, but I don't know if you know what I mean. That kind of experimenting with...

Rubyyy: Yeah like kind of different energies.

Gem: Yeah

Rubyyy: It's funny because I used to be like afraid to get into male drag. I felt really afraid to get into male drag. I was really scared that I was going to be really upset by it, which you know - Ding ding ding! - but I didn't know. I was just like, "I just don't want to see myself like that and no, I just think it'd be really upsetting." And then I actually did. My first Drag King character debuted last year. At one of the few shows I did last year called Cabaret Roulette and there's a performer who's like -ish known. They're not super famous, but his name is Tony Clifton. And most people would know him from appearing in a film called Man on the Moon, which was starring Jim Carrey and he was representing Andy Kaufman. Andy Kaufman is this like surreal kind of... surrealist comedian who had different kinds of characters. But then Tony Clifton... Okay, so follow me on this, Gem. So this is a real me-thing! So Tony Clifton is a real person, a real lounge singer, but Andy Kaufman then played a version of Tony Clifton. And brought him into pop culture a little bit. And so in this show, I did my version of Tony Clifton because Tony Clifton after Andy Kaufman started being played by different people.  Andy Kaufman would send someone else to play Tony Clifton on the Johnny Carson show, when it was this real like head-fuckery of drag-ness and so I love that and I think there's something because if people Google Tony Clifton right now, he pretty much looks like this skeezy Las Vegas, maybe more like Boston lounge singer with a broom brush moustache and just like roughly tuxedo, gaudy, whatever. And there was something about Tony was like my gateway because I was in male drag, but it was just different.

Rubyyy: Actually, that's a lie. So I did try and I think this was during lockdown as well, no it must have been before. Lydia put me in male drag and what I didn't like about it is I didn't like trying to be like a sexy boyband guy. I wanted to play with masculinity differently. And that's what actually made me make this Tony Clifton, or go into the Tony Clifton zone because I just wanted something that felt more like a real archetypal man than the archetypal boyband kind of look. And then Tony was like this gateway where then after that, I felt much more comfortable putting that on and trying it. It didn't feel scary. And I guess for people who are trying drag or that kind of stuff to just kind of like explore and push themselves, I would encourage them to go to an extreme because somewhere in between there might lie other truths, but somehow going to the extreme of where you are, it leaves a greater space to explore in between.

Gem: That's really interesting. I've never thought of that before.

Rubyyy: Well, I think it worked for me. So that's all I could say. Because I felt much more comfortable and the same as I really love being an AFAB drag queen. My mom would always say like, "Why can't you be a pretty drag queen?" And it's like, well, I spent like a good 10 years, 15 years trying to be, pretending and dragging up as a pretty woman. I don't want to do that. I want to be a terrifying woman. I want to be a disgusting woman. I want to be a shocking woman. I want to be a terrifying woman. Same as I want to be a disgusting, sweaty man or, you know, a bumbling stumbly cute man. I'm not super interested in exploring delectable or easy in a way kind of archetypes. And I don't know why it's just my personality, I guess.

Gem: Yeah, I think there's something really queer in that though, like also being able to... Because that idea of if you're doing drag needing to pass potentially or you know, to look as close to the perfect version of what a cis woman might look like, that kind of thing. Yeah, that doesn't feel quite queer enough, I guess. And so actually being able to queer that and appear in other ways feels much more appealing to me.

Rubyyy: Yeah, totally and also it was definitely spurred from the fact that when I started doing "female drag" it was over 10 years ago now. And it was a very different drag world then. And it's the same one though now where there is this pressure, they would always say to me, "Oh, why are you wearing that?" or "Why aren't you wearing this?" And because I was someone who's socialised as an AFAB person I was really sensitive to the pressures of a woman should look like this, a woman should do that. So I was kind of like, known for being really unpolished or like, "Oh, Rubyyy never wears a wig" or "Have you seen Rubyyy wearing flats?" and I would literally be wearing that to be like, "Fuck you. Yeah, I am gonna wear these flats and I'm not gonna wear lashes and I'm gonna wear no wig and I'm going to call it drag, and I don't care what you think and what you say and even how you feel, sorry to say, because I am not going to, in my art and in my drag, subscribe to some sort of crazy misogynistic concepts of what a woman needs to be like." It just seems absolutely ludicrous. But people felt even more entitled to say that to me, because I was an AFAB person, for sure.

Gem: Yeah. And there's something about diet culture in there, too, right? Like, yes, there's that kind of need to be the most perfect women you could possibly be, but then also the idea of with that coming, thinness, and attractiveness, and quietness and those kinds of things.

Rubyyy: Yeah, exactly. And definitely in the early days of doing that the kind of drag queens I was working with, I just knew, they just didn't understand. They couldn't understand at the time, what the pressure was as an AFAB person to be that. I still remember even my flatmate in London, I was having a conversation with him before I moved, and he was saying something like, "Oh but what made you feel the pressure to diet or whatever?" And I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Do you think a single AFAB person lives their life without everybody in society telling them that they are bad if they are not x y z?" I couldn't believe it - he was an intelligent dude, who'd lived with me for six years and just seen so much and I was like, "I can't believe you just said that to me". It's so wild. I knew that a lot of the gays who were looking down on my drag at the time couldn't possibly understand totally where I was coming from, no matter how many times I said it, because in their mind I still would look better if I was wearing heels. I was like, I wore heels for probably 10 years, every single day. I know what heels do. I know. I know that. Don't you think I know?

Gem: It's not a secret.

Rubyyy: It's not a secret and also it just feels to me like don't get me wrong, I love a very beautiful, glamorous, drag queen. I love it, like totally. But I don't want it for me, because it was literally my real life reality for like 10 years or longer. And you know, it almost destroyed me as a person and probably did destroy me as a person. That's something I'm still coming back from and as you said, re-parenting myself on now because that is something that's a lot to unpack the damage it takes to pretend to be someone else in your life for a majority of your life.

Gem: Yeah and there's so much in there isn't there because I think as well as being queer and I remember that we talked before about the kind of realisations that you had when you realised that you were a lesbian at the time, and then like, realising you were, and this isn't an exact quote, but you said something like "unfuckable to men", and as soon as sort of having that realisation, what did that mean? And I guess now with the new or additional realisations that you're having about your body, there's just so much kind of bundled up in that. And I think also neurodivergence comes into it as well because there's something around like, as neurodivergent people needing to mask or being required to mask in order to get by in a neurotypical world. And when you're able to unpack all of that, what can you be then, what are the limitations because they're very different than if you exist in a neurotypical bubble.

Rubyyy: Totally. Yeah, totally. And I think that's what's really interesting about the the chapter that's unfolding before me is like when I've got to this point of really feeling, not completely, but much better understanding my gender and much better understanding my neurodiversity and much better understanding my kind of quirks, it's like then I'm put back where it all began.

Gem: Mmm. Wow.

Rubyyy: Exactly. And now it's like so what have you really learned? Let's see. And I'm not saying that... I don't think the universe is saying it to me like, "Oh, you gotta show us what you got." No, they believe in me. It's not a test. It's not a test.

Gem: It's almost like coming full circle, isn't it?

Rubyyy: Yes. Yes, for sure.

Gem: Wow, how exciting.  

Rubyyy: Yeah, exactly. And in that way, it's really early days. We'll have to do one another time this year at this time, see where we're at.

Gem: That would be really cool. So something I like to ask people in every episode is if there's something they'd like to recommend or something they're really enjoying at the moment, and it can be an idea, a person, an album, anything at all. Is there anything that you have to share?

Rubyyy: Okay, so I don't know if this qualifies.

Gem: Anything qualifies.

Rubyyy: Okay. Okay. So my new thing that I'm super into is going to bed really early and getting up actually quite early as well. Not all days, because my main thing that I'm super into is sleep, because after a few years of actually being afraid, like I had a phobia of sleep for a few years, that certainly didn't contribute anything. I am now like, "Everybody, let's all develop bedtime routines. Let's all go to bed. Let's wake up in the early in the morning and not talk for three hours and be quiet in the world." I am highly recommending rest, rest, rest, because I'm still learning how to do it well, and I'm still learning how to do it consistently. But even from my foray into that, I'm like, "Wow, game changer."

Gem: Yeah, this is... Oh, it resonates with me so much because on an episode I recorded last week with Adele Jarrett-Kerr, who is just awesome, she actually recommended sleep. That was her thing she's enjoying at the moment, and having a sleep routine. And through lockdown. I realised quite how bad my sleep was like, it just got worse and worse.

Rubyyy: Yeah, and it wasn't until I could like have a nap in the day or rest in the day, I started to realise my toxic beliefs around rest were like, I'm not allowed to sit down. I'm not allowed to not work. I'm not allowed to in the middle of a global crisis and, you know, a million crises. Do you remember there was one six weeks where it felt like literally we cannot take one more thing. I was struggling with feeling like I was allowed to rest.

Gem: Wow, it's so deeply ingrained, isn't it?

Rubyyy: It is, it's crazy and I don't like to use the word crazy loosely. So I'm gonna say it's bananas because we all need it right? And it only makes things better. And also, we've been so tricked into the lifestyles where and I feel like that I'm just like, we all kind of went whoa, wait, what? What am I doing? Why was I doing that? Why was I doing that like that?

Gem: It's a huge wake up. Wake up - pardon the pun. So what time are you going to bed just so I can get some tips on the bedtime routine?

Rubyyy: So last night, I remember looking at the clock and it was nine minutes past six. And I was like, "You can't go to bed yet".

Gem: Did you actually?

Rubyyy: I didn't. Lydia and I went to bed, we watched a little bit of TV but we were like both definitely asleep, totally asleep by nine o'clock.

Gem: Oh, wow and what time are you getting up?

Rubyyy: I went to bed as early as possible. Well, so it depends. Because Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we do Everybodyyy Move. It's at 12pm UK time, which is 7am Canada time so on those days, we get up at 5.30am. But then on Saturdays, my dance class - I just kept all my times so that I can still work for the UK, to be honest. So my dance class is at the same time on Saturdays, which is 11am, which is 6am here, so I get up at 4.30am to make sure I'm like super ready. So we're getting up anywhere between 4.30am and 7.30am I guess on any given day, but we're still scheduling in, like literally scheduling, lie in days like this daily lie in and even if we're not sleeping in, we're having chill coffee in bed , scrolling on the phone, not getting up and go-go-going until a little bit later.

Gem: Nice. I'm gonna have to try getting up really early.

Rubyyy: Oh my god, I have to say it. Obviously, there was an adjustment, but it's so nice to you know, if you do work as well, if you get up at like four or five in the morning and say you started work, so you got up at five and then you did some work at six, by 9am you've done three hours of work and you have this whole day ahead and it's like, "Oh, now I can do whatever the fuck I want. I could go back to bed. I could like paint a picture. I could play a game. I could do whatever" because, you know, obviously we do unfortunately still have to have jobs and get stuff done, but sometimes it's nice to just do it first thing and then you're like, "Ah, what would I like to do with my day?” 

Gem: Yeah, that sounds cool. I'm gonna have to schedule all my clients from 4am onwards.

Rubyyy: Oh my gosh, honestly. Highly recommend!

Gem: I'll just have to start working in Australia or something.

Rubyyy: That's a good business model.

Gem: Yeah. Oh, thank you so much Rubyyy. It's been so great to catch up.

Rubyyy: Yeah, no it's been really nice. Thanks again for asking me to have a chat.

Gem: Not at all and hopefully speak to you again in two years.

Rubyyy: Yeah sounds good.

Gem: Well, there you have it, the first episode of Series 2 of Queers & Co. So great to be back. If you'd like to follow Ruby's work, then please do head to Instagram or you'll also find them on Facebook. Their Instagram handles are @RubyyyJones. You can also check out their life drawing which is @LifeDrawingRubyyy or the @EverybodyyyMove event. If you're looking for a way to move your body that feels joyful and will set you up for the day then I'd really recommend heading over to that. I'll be back next week with another awesome guest and in the meantime, if you'd like to carry on the conversation, then head over to the Queers & Co. Facebook group. Bye everyone!